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Post by motionmom on Jun 15, 2006 16:23:44 GMT -5
Tony.. I would like to see something costructive out of you... all that passion / hatred has to be able to drive you to do something good for the racing community...
As for my own opinion, I would gladly support a unified vision - this is for the entire family to be enjoyed, whether it be for the kids, or the love of the sport ... like Tony (who is this guy anyway?), I too have my favorites but its not about opinion it's about getting it done...lets see some forward motion....
I do have to say my two cents about Mustang.... I personally have made several complaints about the " lack of scheduled events" at this facility and I am ever gratefull for the Masterpools seemingly endless effort to provide a local track for the kids to ride. I am not too happy about the gate fee + but will pay it and not compain ( sorry Tara ) again, for it is a safe positive, clean place for my son to ride and race...this is what we need in my opinion - and more of it....
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Post by tony on Jun 15, 2006 23:51:35 GMT -5
Ok, If everyone is actually going to try to work together, I'll let all the anger and/or disapointment I have in a few people go and let the stuff that's been peeing me off go as by gones as well.
NO NEW CR4P THOUGH!
This past history of keeping the cr4p all hushed from the public has only served to allow new cr4p to form and old cr4p to continue fueling fires. If everyone is responsible for their actions and decisions within the publics watchful eye I think alot of people will think twice before approaching the past means of resolution that has a long history around here of not allowing things to just work out, or even work towards the best interest of anyone. That veil of ugly secrecy has hidden alot of problems within the MX community around this area and in hiding it all there's been no efforts to get any of them actually resolved.
They are likely never going to get resolved, so, like I said, I'll at least let it all go, providing NO new garbage gets started, clean slate like to everyone in my mind. I'll wish everyone the best of wishes and do what ever I can to help whoever needs it. I'm going to focus on the positive more instead of just trying to fix all the negative things that have happened.
I've gotten so caught up in the handful of people I viewed as problem areas that It's blinded me to all the great people we have around here who are doing great things and I think all my energy, motivation, and time spent would be time much better spent in trying to help the great people we have within all the promoter groups and at all the events as both staff, vendors, racers and spectators and back end support.
nielsenracing282, I can't speak for any of the other tracks or associations, but if you can put together enough riders wanting to sign up for this class at a Mustang event I can try to get you penciled in somewhere just like we did for the Supermini class which we were not going to hold had it not of been for all the racers who showed up at the event and asked for it. I thought our new 4 stroke open class was going to end up getting dropped when it at first looked like there wasn't going to be much interest in it, but then just before the last minute people seemed to begin signing up for it.
You know me, I'm a 2 stroke guy myself, but the fact of the matter is there just aren't too many of us left anymore, if there's enough interest though when people are signing up, we'll see what we can do, even if we had to make it a split gate with the 4 stroke open class but scored it seperately for the 2 strokes as their own open class maybe? I can't see any problems in doing it that way.
I'd like to figure out a way though that we could scrub some of the redundant classes everyone offers and still be able to allow everyone the chance to race in 2 different classes. By scrubbing some of the influx of classes our area tracks offer we could likely all see better events getting done sooner and more laps given to the available classes. The more classes we add to any event, the less time we have to work within. I haven't had a chance to give it all my own thoughts yet, but it's certainly on my list of trying to figure out a win win situation that works for everyone.
nmxd, I think for what it's worth your shift of focus your describing is a great idea, from my own personal racers only perspective I think you do put on a great quality event and some of the problems I've at least had were not due to your putting on your own great events but instead that role you've played by trying to wear multiple hats. I still don't care for your shortened tracks, nothing against you intended in my saying that, I know your just trying to work within the bounds you have to work with and do the best that can be done, but for me personaly I just don't care for the short tracks and short moto's.
As far as the license agreement goes with the Trackside software though, if you read the actual software license agreement to the letter in which it was written, and understand the intent of why it was specificly written in the way which all software license agreements are written then you'd find that the way in which MX West has been using the software is indeed in violation of the software agreement. I know this because I specificly asked them about it under simular circumstances. The Masterpools were under the impression that when they joined SMRA as a promoter that SMRA was going to provided the scoring much in the same way MX West has done. However, since I've been helping out at Honey Lake with the scoring there I read the actual software license agreement and after doing so, being as how I'm responsible for the systems and software at Mustang I contacted Jon from Impact Software directly and asked if we were allowed to do this, allowed to have a single group like SMRA hold a single license to the software and score for all of the promoters under that single license. Cutting the details of the story short and to the point, the Masterpools now own their own legal copy of the Trackside software. If a single sanctioning body like MX West or SMRA were allowed to own a single copy and legaly use it at all events , then scratch that thought, let me point you to a better example... The AMA are a single sanctioning body but on a larger scale, the AMA owns and uses a copy of the Trackside software, however even the AMA isn't allowed to use that single copy of it at all the events they are involved with so individual promoters of AMA events, like say Honey Lake, had to purchase their own software license for scoring purposes at their events. They then upload the Trackside data from their events to the AMA's copy of the software so the AMA can publish the results all within the relms of the actual software license agreement and legaly.
I'm finding it interesting though that MX West has somehow been allowed a completely uniqe software license agreement as you describe it than anyone else, including the AMA has been allowed, hopefully you have that in writting and legal for everyones sake should a problem ever surface as a result of it. This is possible I suppose, but I remember Kim stating to me once what she paid for the software, the same as anyone else pays for it, typicaly it's been my experience that extended license agreements for software use come at a premium price above the single user price and that doesn't seem to be the case. It is however possible with in the very first paragraph of the license agreement though which states the following...
If I was a track owner/promoter, then I'd request that we had more than just your telling us "This is COMPLETELY ALLOWED AND LEGAL according to Trackside themselves" and instead had something more like what Impact Software specifies in their license agreement where as seen above, clearly states such use as follows "Unless you have a different license agreement signed by IMPACT Software Group, Inc.". After all, how's it going to look when all our area promoters get taken to court over software license violations and there's no legal documentation availlable to cover anyones butts?
The license agreement in it's entirety isn't that long, I'm doubting in your reply to me here that you even have a copy of it in front of you or actually know what it says because what your telling me seems to be the exact opposite of the second section from the very top of the actual license agreement...
I can post the license agreement here for you in it's absolute entirety if you'd like to read it all over, but the portions I've provided here are rather explicite and there's nothing else within the body of the agreement that allows for any such exceptions as you state my comments being wrong to the effect of.
I'm not dogging on MX West, or you or Kim in saying this, if I wanted to just be an ahole about it all as I'm sure your thinking I'm trying to do I wouldn't have said anything to you or anyone else and instead just directly reported it as software piracy. I believe you guys were doing so in an honest belief and with honest intentions and not trying to purposely do anything wrong. In posting it here where now hopefuly all the promoters can now make their own resonable conclusions in regards to the actual legality of the issue they can come to their own conclusions and make their own better informed decisions while also insuring they have their own well being legaly covered and you guys have written authorization to do with the software as you are telling everyone you do.
motionmom, Your going to find this all probably hard to believe, but outside of the darkside of me a select group of people seem to think by my postings on the internet, there is truly a constructive side I apply not only to our local racing comunity, our local comunity, but even a world wide community as a whole. Believe it or not there's a deeper side to me that's very selfless, and it's my more common side the people who actually know me first hand get to see. Don't paint me off as just cold and black all negative. I do alot more positive by far than any of the negative some people acuse me of. Ironicly some of the very people I've gone out of my way to help around here are also some of the first who publicly accuse me of always just being negative, how quick they are to always jump on me and state I'm doing wrong, all the while fully accepting the levels of help I at the same time do for them. My constructive efforts also go beyond just what I do in our local racing community, a perfect example of that happened just as I was in mid stride of this post, ironic or not, it still happened, a normal day in my life. My nieghbors who don't even speak english came to my door to tell me their 1 year old water heater hasn't worked for 2 days. I droped what I was doing here and looked at it, pulled the problem part and sent them off to Lowes with their paper work and reciept to get the new part under warranty. 45 minutes later they returned with no part and said Lowes told them no (from the best of my own weak spanish I could understand). I took the part back to Lowes then myself, got it replaced without any questions or anyone even looking at the paperwork, returned and got their water heater working for them, charged my normal nothing at all for the trouble, to me it just feels good to help people when I can so that's more than any money offered to me is worth. There's alot of people right here reading this right now who I've done the exact same for, how quickly they over look though what I've done to help them on a personal level and instead select to attack me for pointing out grose and disgusting garbage that's taken place within our racing community and people just didn't want any of the racers or general public to know about because it would make everyone see the real side of what's been going on and where all the problems have been stemming from that have everyone asking why can't we all just get along. The stuff I've broughten out continues to get deleted, despite being constantly discussed by all in the background where the rumors just spread further and wider under one sided point of view control. I get written off as some kind of fanatic while the truth just gets buried deeper within the lies and deciet that have taken place in the effort to tell everyone all is well in lala land despite everyone seeing it isn't and wondering what's wrong. I've been the person trying to explain to everyone just what is wrong and why we're all seeing the disputes, conflicts and problems we're all seeing and have attempted to do so publicly so the issues are protected from just being one side of the story, but instead available for public scrutiny. If we could just leave the nasty truths behind the scenes to get properly sorted out amongst those involved that would be fine, but the fact of the matter is, nothing what so ever has been getting sorted out and resolved and the holes just kept getting dug deeper.
If you want to see something constructive from me then you haven't looked very hard despite all that, I've been giving it my all and helping out at just about every area track around here as a volunteer as much as one person possibly can. I practicaly live at the Mustang track just because they are new and in more need of the help than any other track already established out there. I've taken on a much larger role in helping there than I ever intended to, but its stuff that needed to get done and they just didn't have anyone else stepping up and offering to do it for them so I sort of got pushed into the jobs I do there, from flagging during practice days, to picking up rocks on the track, to hanging fence to managing and supplying them with all their computer systems needed to not only hold a race but run a business, the core of such equipment I donated to them out of my own pocket.
I'm not saying I'm heaven sent or anything, but please at least check your facts before just accusing me of doing NOTHING constructive.
As far as the gate fee's go I'm 100% with you on that, I don't agree with the gate fee thing one bit either. There's been so much going on it hasn't been a maximum priority in comparison to other things I've had a chance to bring up. I know when it first did come up though the reasoning behind it as I was told was because SMRA and MX West promoters decided there should be a standard fee charged per event and the fee's your seeing, $35 first event, $25 second event, $10 gate fee were the result of that understanding which was supposed to be charged at all events, no more, no less.
Mustang is charging that amount only because that's what at one point all the area promoters agreed to. I'll go out on a limb here and also state though, I think this was done so the cost of operation for tracks like Honey Lake and Mustang where there's not only a race cost per event but a daily cost involved in either land ownership or lease payments applies, making these 2 tracks in particular much more expensive for all of us to have available to us, yet at the same time, more money for dollars spent at the events also goes back into the tracks.
So while I'm down with fully supporting you on the gate fee issue, count me in on that fight, also keep in mind, if I had it my way we'd all be able to get 20 lap moto's and it wouldn't cost us a thing to do so. In my dream world all of us racers would get paid to just show up at an event by the promoters and the spectator fee's would float the bill. Unfortuneatly I guess all of us aren't that interesting to watch so we don't have sold out stadiums filled with spectators willing to pay enough to watch the rest of us out there just having fun.
Like I've said though in the begining of this post, I'm going to try now to focus all my energy in a positive direction. I think these last two Mustang races were actually that wake up call for me when I realized just how many good people were actually out there helping and doing what every they could to make MX in this area a great thing and while I could name off the people causing problems I couldn't tell you all the actual people who were helping so much to just keep it going and make it great.
I want to shift my gears and instead be a part of that great majority of people we have who despite what I've seen as bad for the sport still want to go that extra mile and take things above and beyond for all of us. I owe a deep and from the heart appology to all the great people, the majority by far, who we have in this area that have done and continue to do so much for this sport. All of us are truly blessed with alot of great people who just for the most part silently set back and do absolutely everything they can to make all this possible.
Sorry to all, and thanks at the same time.
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Post by Mr Moto on Jun 16, 2006 0:00:30 GMT -5
Where do you get the Cliff note version of this?
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Post by wrightme on Jun 16, 2006 0:18:01 GMT -5
I used to create a "Readers Digest" version, but Tony doesn't like it when I do that.
Tony, I still think you could say the same thing in about 1/10th of the word count. Also, some of the "garbage" you bring up may get better reception if you PRIVATELY approached some of the issues you bring up instead of dumping the garbage out for everyone to see.
Tony, this is NOT an attack, but your methods stink most of the time when you post on a web forum. It is not normally the content, but the METHOD of delivery that just irks me to no end. Plenty of the things you bring up could easily be taken care of with a simple PM to one or a few persons, and resolved without creating a big forum stink. Remember, business is not the same as it was a year ago.....
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Post by beaupre716 on Jun 16, 2006 0:41:53 GMT -5
The stuff I've broughten out continues to get deleted, despite being constantly discussed by all in the background where the rumors just spread further and wider under one sided point of view control. I applaud the new direction you've taken. But, if I may make one clarification, I've only deleted you in the few cases we discussed, and those had more to do with presentation than they did with content. You--along with everyone else--are always welcome to post your thoughts, whatever they might be, so long as the words stay constructive (or constructively destructive, as the case might be.)
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Post by tony on Jun 16, 2006 3:48:45 GMT -5
Mr Moto, I'm a fan of your posts and like your approach, you've been a key player in my thoughts that I need to change my own approach to things and I honestly don't even know who you actually are, doesn't matter though. There's been alot I've said and felt just a short post wouldn't be enough in my efforts to fix it though. Further sorry that a bunch of that also got tied up in explaining legalities to Ty in respect to software license agreements. My suggestion to you would be just print it all out, have your own lawyer review it and if he says your good you probably are so no need to read it all on your part.
Dave, I owe you a huge appology more than anyone else. I know you personaly incase others aren't aware of that and your a person of high character with the type of morales I think all of us would like to raise our own children under, you strike a nerve with me sometimes online, but never in person, in person your one of the nicest guys I can say I've ever met. The post that I directed at you and Robert very properly deleted wasn't written from my true feelings but instead purposely directed as a counter attack to the initial attack directed towards me over cr4p I've just gotten fed up with from people around here, a minute handful of people around here actualy and you just happened to post in the wrong thread at the wrong time, I don't think I honestly even read what you had to say there, I just went off into full battle mode fed up with all the cr4p and you got caught in my crossfire from just poping yourself into the wrong place at the wrong time when I was mad. I don't expect you to just forgive me for what I said and fully deserve your being mad at me or hating me, guess that's the price I pay for letting my emotions at the time over run my mouth and will at least admit, the lose of you as a friend is my own fault and the cause of my own bad judgement while just being mad and fed up with so much. I had absolutely no right in just going off and attacking you like I did and you didn't deserve that, at all, your just trying to do your part in what ever way you can, you have honest intentions and great motives in just doing right, you set a good example for all of us, the world needs more people like you.
Mr B Pre, You need to make no clarifications about deleteing anything here. You got hit with a worse case scenario where one person came at me who I've just had my fill with being nice to and pushed to my own limits unleashed on. Just so your forwarned, theres actually two people out there who I've bent over backwards trying to be nice to despite their out right ignorant attacks aimed at me for too long now and I've never before attacked either of them personaly in any way, instead went out of my way to be nice to the two of them. I unleashed on one when they posted here at me, the other escaped my post wrath by being a coward and replying as only a guest. You were in the right deleting that garbage after I unfolded and just went off. My new direction or not, keep your finger on that delete button though because if either one of the the two of them have another single word to say in my immediate or distant direction I'm going to fire off on them again and I've never provoked anything personaly towards either of them despite their mission in life of doing nothing more than directly attacking me. I'm more fed up with just those two people than anything else because I've put up with them for too long now trying to be nice back because they are nothing more than the rest of us, racers, without cause and niether one of them lift a finger to do anything at all for area MX other than think they've found their place slamming me.
They seem to have a single mission in life though, attempt their best in peeing me off for some reason and belittle all the efforts I do give while doing nothing on their own part.
Robert the post that was deleted had complete justification in being deleted, you have my blessing in not being a gestapo dictator, but instead a good board administrator. I've managed message boards like this for so many years, obviously none of you know that without my saying so. I've actually done more than managed Message Boards like this, I was one of the original developers who created the Message Board software web sites like this are running on. So you could say I know a thing or two about these message boards.
Robert, too bad you have to work on Saturdays, because if you ever had a free Saturday afternoon available I could hit you with things you've never even imagined or were prepaired for in holding your own message board just to help you quickly learn the ins and outs. The fear of that delete button needs to be the least of your worries.
As MX West has still yet to figure out, the use of that delete button is the absolute worse thing you can do when managing a mesage board, your so better off giving your posters a response to even the crap than deleting it. (within some extreme reasons, your deletion was well within the needs to delete, stop feeling bad)
Message board rule number two, maintain posts 100% relevant with the purpose people come to your message board in the first palce and keep posts on topic. When people start posting off topic garbage, boot it. If you want to keep a user interest, focus only on what that user has come to your web site for in the first place. Going off topic does not work, trust me. When people start posting off topic lock the post or take the time to redirect it. Use the lock, not the delete, don't be afraid to lock a post you'd other wise think should be deleted, lock all posts that people try to take off topic if you can't get it back under control. What ever you do, don't allow posts to get taken off topic though.
The MX west board was dead when I first turned up there, a key piece of advice I see they have forgotten was never allow a single post to drift down your page with 0 replies to it. Reply to all posts no matter what, always. A post sinking down the page with no repiles to it is a direct sign to not only the poster but to everyone else that they are replying on a dead board, no one hangs out at dead message boards, people move on and go else where. our average user expects a reply to their response almost instantly. No need to reply instantly, but for the next user that comnes along they should at least see some type of reply was given. A load of zero repiels lie we see taking place on the MX West board right now clearly implies its a dead board and people move on to somewhere else.
Don't delete contoversy, probably the biggest make or break your mesage board rule possible.
Yep, it can get real ugly,
yep you can get 10,000 people requesting you delete what one person had to say.
Your going to think if you don't delete what seemingly all your users requested you delete your going to loose all your users. Hey after all, some of these people if not all are your most active members.
Biggest mistake you could make. If your blessed with a single person who 10,000 take the time to request get s deleted you have a hit on your hands and should almost pay the person to be there.
Guarantee you don't have people contacting you saying this other person is great, keep them. Never happens. However having a person people go out of their way and ask you to delete them, offer that person money to be on your web site even if you personaly hate them because they are going to keep other people there constantly watching to see what they have to say.
People are sheep and predictable, its a easy given, the harder they try not to be, the more they are.
I have so many years of experience at this message board BS it isn't even funny.
It's not about BSing people, it's just about giving them a reason to either come back, or come out of the wood work and otherwise get involved. Take my advice on the subject or leave it, but there is absolutely no one you'll find anywhere on the internet that has more experience with message boards than me for reasons I won't even begin to go into. I want to see this message board rock.
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Post by mxracersmom on Jun 16, 2006 10:59:42 GMT -5
Cliff notes, Spark Notes, Readers Digest Condensed Version...Someone please do something.
Tony 50 words or less is a beautiful thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Make it a contest, who can get their point across in the least amount of words...I like it!
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